tv The Cycle MSNBC July 23, 2014 12:00pm-1:01pm PDT
and back here at home, the battle for the senate's focused on georgia, where democrats hope to flip a seat blue after last night's surprised victory in the nine-week gop runoff. and we start with new developments on the faa banning u.s. flights into tel aviv. nbc's tom costello has the details. tom, thanks for being here. we just heard from the state department. what is the latest? >> well, the bottom line is the state department says, in fact, hamas does have rockets capable of hitting tel aviv. as for the decision on the part of the faa to extend yet again by 24 hours that prohibition against any u.s. carriers flying into or out of tel aviv, that remains in effect. that means american, delta, and united airlines not flying in or out. that means the major israeli carrier, the flag carrier out of israel, is really the only
option at the moment for american citizens wanting to directly fly into or out of tel aviv. actually, today former new york mayor michael bloomberg flew that route from new york into tel aviv, essentially to say that the faa had overreacted, and it's safe to fly into the airport. in fact, that's a sentiment echoed by israeli authorities, really fuming mad at the united states accusing the united states of really playing into the hand of hamas. but again, for about another, what, 18, 19 hours or so, that prohibition against u.s. carriers flying into or out of tel aviv will remain in effect. >> all right, tom. listen, stay with us. we want to also talk to you about flight 17. today's downings of two ukrainian planes is demonstrating two problems. it is hard to investigate a crash in an active war zone, and putin is not backing down. u.s. intelligence officials say they have a solid case that it was russian-made surface-to-air
missiles fired inside that rebel-controlled area and that would be responsible for last week's downing of mh-17. those same experts say they don't know who fired the missile. that's why russia is on a pr offensive trying to implicate a ukrainian fighter jet they say was in the vicinity at the time of the attack. but the notion of a nearby ukrainian jet when you think about it also adds credence to the american intelligence that the rebels mistook that civilian flight for a military plane. the white house is now looking for german help in pressuring putin. president obama is sending his chief of staff to berlin hoping to smooth over some frayed u.s.-german relations. the white house has satellite images of a russian facility allegedly used to train the rebels. the u.s. ambassador to ukraine tweeted them out. meanwhile, the families of the victims saw the first bodies arriving in the netherlands for identification. one after another 40 coffins were carried past mourning families. the prime minister and dutch royals all into a convoy of hearses.
[ trumpet playing ]. >> a very sad scene there on this official day of mourning in the netherlands. the public came out lining the streets, as you can see, to pay respect to all of those innocent victims. now, tom, the memorials continue in the netherlands. dutch officials launching this investigation. where do things stand? >> well, a couple of things. first of all, what you saw there
was at the dutch military base as those caskets arrived on a c-130 and a c-17 transport plane. then about an hour's journey or so to another military base cross country in that nation of 16 million where they will begin the very difficult forensic analysis trying to determine identities of those individuals who have been brought back. that was the first delivery of 40 individuals who died on board flight 17. 40 out of 298. so they're expecting more bodies to be returned tomorrow and again more on the third day. i would expect given that this nation is in mourning you'll see the dutch royals and the prime minister out there again greeting them as they return the next few days. as for the investigation, the dutch are now formally in charge of this investigation. they assumed that control from the ukrainians. the black boxes have already been delivered to british, the
accident investigation bureau in the u.k. very proficient organization with great expertise at looking at exactly what is on those two flight data recorders and the cockpit voice recorder. in fact, we're told they have already done a preliminary reading on both and found that they do not appear to be tampered with. they've already, in fact, done a preliminary read out on the cockpit voice recorder and believe there is, in fact, valid data on the cockpit voice recorder. it's going to take a while longer on the flight data recorder. separately now, the dutch are also beginning the process of trying to gather up forensically any wreckage that might be on the ground. once they thoroughly look at that, photograph it, diagram it, all of that, ultimately pieces of wreckage, we expect will be transported as well to the united kingdom for a more thorough investigation. i would not expect a whole heck of a lot from the black boxes as we have been talking about for the last few days. you'll probably learn the exact
time when the plane broke apart. you'll probably learn to what extent, what altitude maybe the plane broke apart. was it instantaneous, or did the plane descend a while before it broke apart? the fact it broke apart in midair seems to be pretty much conclusive given the fact we have large chunks of this aircraft spread over such a vast piece of territory in the ukrainian countryside. but i would not expect that you're going to get a whole heck of a lot more from the black boxes. as for the cockpit voice recorder, the question is whether the pilots realized what was going on. did they have even an instant to communicate with each other and say, oh, my goodness, what's happening? or was it like that? that's probably as much as you're going to get from the cockpit voice recorders as they try to piece together exactly what happened. incidentally, the united kingdom, of course, a party to this investigation. the brits, as i mentioned. the germans, the ukrainians, the dutch, the malaysian, the united states has the ntsb also
assisting. two ntsb representatives now assisting on this investigation. but this is a dutch investigation, and i would say that my own reading on that is that there probably could be no better country to be running this investigation right now than the dutch. first of all, they've lost two-thirds of the people on board. second of all, they have a reputation for clean governance, for a highly proficient, educated, and incredibly technologically proficient infrastructure. >> tom costello, thank you for your reporting. we turn now to nbc's keir simmons on the ground in eastern ukraine. >> reporter: this is happening near the wreckage of mh-17. about 15 miles in that direction, we saw two ukrainian fighter jets in the air this morning, and then the news that two jets have been downed. youtube video unverified by nbc news shows a plume of smoke and then burning wreckage strewn
around. what you can hear from those pro-russian separatists talking on the back of this video is they are saying things eerily similar to when mh-17 went down. they're saying, let's try and find the black boxes, let's try and find the four crew members who we believe ejected. as i'm speaking, we can hear, we think, ukrainian jets still in the air, possibly looking for their crews, while on the ground here those rebels are looking for them too. meanwhile, we have heard artillery fire, perhaps two explosions in the distance. shelling continuing, reminding us this is a war zone. >> nbc's keir simmons, stay safe. let's bring in damon wilson, executive vice president of the atlantic council. he was a russian-ukrainian expert in both the bush and clinton administration. good day to you. >> pleasure to be with you. >> you know a lot about this region. i want to the play some sound from someone else who does, spent a lot of time in ukraine and talks about the new type of putin we're seeing. >> putin today is not putin in
2000. putin in 2000 and through 2008 was somebody who was consolidating the state, ending chaos in russia as he saw it, doing things we didn't like then even. but above all, building an economy and a middle class. now the economy is flat at best. and to paper it over, i think, in order to find a source of legitimacy, he has asserted himself as this great russian, and in a sense not a neoimperialist, but somebody who's swaggering on the stage, not just as a world actor. >> damon, does a bad economy for russia mean bad geopolitics for the rest of us? >> i think it does. i think we see a president putin that has actually turned to a nationalist agenda, not just to help restore a sense of russian greatness but actually the steps he's taken at home show that he's used this crisis to consolidate his own authoritarian control of the country at the same time. so i think david's on to something there, absolutely. >> and damon, i wonder what you make of the latest news coming
out of ukraine, that two ukrainian su-25 fighter jets were shot down in eastern ukraine near the russian border. is that an indication to you putin is continuing to escalate the conflict there, even as he, you know, speaks better words about need for diplomacy and the need to deescalate in the region? >> you know, i think putin's actions on the ground almost are a way to mock the west and to mock our response to what's happening. it's clear that while we need a full investigation, we need the details to come out, there would be no crisis, there would be no fighting in eastern ukraine right now if it weren't for strategy of vladimir putin to destabilize the region. there wouldn't be advanced weaponry on the battlefield if it weren't for russian supplies. and there wouldn't be folks that understood how to use that so proficiently if they hadn't been trained by russia. and to that end, these are the leaders of this so-called separatist movement. themselves, many of them are russian intelligence and military officials.
so even as we try to sort of de-escalate this cry circumstances he's doubling down on trying to strengthen the hand of the separatists here. >> it's important to point out this investigation is going on in the middle of an active war zone. obviously not an easy task to do. do we have a clear sense as to what the rebels are fully capable of, and how much more complicated does it make this investigation? >> this is tremendously complicated. we've already had a site of the crash that's been contaminated, if you will, by the rebels' activity just working through the material that's there and parts that have disappeared. i think it's important and i have full confidence in the capabilities of the dutch and the others involved to trace this back. but i think it's most important that we actually not fall into what we might see as putin's trap here, to put out alternative narratives. maybe the ukrainians shot this aircraft down after all, and that we get lost in the uncertainty and details over the
specifics in this investigation while putin himself stays focused on changing the reality of the ground of strengthening the military hand of the separatists. >> damon, why has the eu not moved to sanction or punish russia in some way? >> this is a difficult issue for europe, it is. there's a deep and strong economic and commercial relationship between the european union and russia. when it comes to the scale of deep stabilization and conflict we're seeing in ukraine, i think this airline crash is driving home to many european leaders that they don't have the luxury to think this is some conflict outside of their scope, that they can turn their back on this and protect their economic interests. putin is driving home in their face that this is really something that impacts their security as well. so you've seen a real reticence to go down this path, but i think you're seeing a stiffening of some spines in european capitals to take the next steps. >> damon wilson, thank you for your time. up next, hamas says they
won't reject a humanitarian truce if their demands are heard. secretary of state john kerry is in the region as we have been reporting. we'll have the detail on all of that as "the cycle" rolls on for wednesday, july 23rd. and peas. [guy] you love it so much. yes you do. but it's good for you, too. [announcer] healthful. flavorful. beneful. from purina. then boom... what happened? stress, fun, bad habits kids, now what? let's build a new, smarter bed using the dualair chambers to sense your movement, heartbeat, breathing. introducing the sleep number bed with sleepiqtm technology. it tracks your sleep and tells you how to adjust for a good, better and an awesome night. the difference? try adjusting up or down. you'll know cuz sleep iq™ tells you. only at a sleep number store, mattresses with sleepiq start at just $999.98. know better sleep with sleep number. legs, for crossing.
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the people in the palestinian territories, the people in israel are all living under the threat or reality of immediate violence. and this needs to end for everybody. we need to find a way forward that works. and it's not violence. >> some strong words there from secretary of state john kerry after meeting with both israeli prime minister netanyahu and
palestinian president abbas earlier today in the region. the u.s. is stepping up its effort to broker a truce. but while the leaders talk, the fighting rages on. hamas continues to fire rockets into israel, and the israeli defense force keeps pounding the gaza strip with artillery tanks and jet fighters. at this hour, more than 600 palestinians have died along with 32 israelis. as tom costello reported, at the top of the broadcast, the faa just announced it would continue to suspend u.s. flights into israel's main airport for the next 20 or so hours. joining us nous is shane harris, senior staff writer for foreign policy and fellow at the new american foundation. shane, welcome. >> hi. >> so secretary kerry is now in the region. he met today with both netanyahu and abbas. does his physical presence there change the game at all? >> i'm not sure it changes it that much. you already hear state department officials kind of tamping down expectations about what he's doing to be able to achieve in the way of an immediate cease-fire or a truce. secretary kerry has invested a lot of personal time and energy
over the past year into negotiating an end to it the israeli-palestinian conflict. this is a much different and in some cases much more difficult set of circumstances now with hamas. so he is obviously there trying his best and meeting with leaders, but i don't think we should expect or have very high expectations in the near term. >> and shane, prime minister netanyahu has said that the most important step for the international community to insist on is the demilitarization of gaza. is that realistic? is that possible to achieve through military alex or through diplomacy? >> i'm not sure it's that realistic through military action certainly and the diplomatic effort seems even far off. obviously right now the israeli defense force is focused on, in a way, demilitarizing gaza to the extent of going through and trying to seal up these tunnels which have been far more numerous than the israelis had thought originally. and trying to knock out some of these command and control centers and to see some of the
rockets. but if demilitarization is sort of a starting point for israel will begin cease-fire talks with hamas, that seems like something of a nonstarter to me. >> indeed, shane. you're not going to demilitarize them by force. you know, hamas needs some level of fighting to happen to maintain its status within gaza. these military incursions play into hamas' long-term strategy. i wonder if israel doesn't need to empower the palestinian citizens economically and politically, perhaps letting people travel more freely, letting them have their own airport, giving them a world that would make it such that hamas' military incursions, their military actions are too disruptive for the world that it's created for them. >> that certainly i think would be a long-term goal that maybe all sides would be amenable to. the israelis do not want to go in and up a gaza. hamas has not done a particularly good job being a
force for governance either. i don't think they'll be seen as a credible actor. from their per spigotive and to your point about empowering palestinians and returning them to some sense of normalcy, one of hamas' demands, and they've just articulated it in the past few minutes, is to lift the blockade and to lift the siege of gaza, which of course is also a nonstarter. you really see these two sides really at laggerheads. how you get there seems almost impossible at this point. >> shane, let me ask you the hard question. there's no easy answer. as the world tries to make sense of this and the conflict is one covered extensively throughout the world, what's the right metric to compare the conduct of these two sides? we debate this in the news room. we've been covering the civilian deaths. if you focus on overall attacks or certain types of human rights violations, you definitely see hamas having a share of the blame there.
what's the metric? >> you know, it's a great question. you're right. there's really no easy answer to this. first of all, the casualties are always going to be lopsided. they're always going to be far, far more palestinians killed than there are israelis for the obvious reasons, that the israelis have a much more ma massive military. you already see some u.s. officials bristling at the way this has not been necessarily a pinpoint operation. when you have the obama administration officials coming out and saying unequivocally that, you know, the metric should be, i guess, in their view that rockets stop raining down on israel, they're not taking a side per se, but i don't know how you ultimately measure what is disproportionate, what is successful. there is really -- there's no easy answer to any of this. there's no great way out of it. just reporting on this has become a difficult exercise because you're often seen as taking one side over the other. >> very difficult. very tough question to answer as well. shane harris, thank you so much.
>> pleasure. >> up next, a little politics. what a surprise for dems down south means for november's battle for the senate. we living up to our name as the place for politics as "the cycle" rolls on. so what's this? check it out. i just saved 15% on car insurance in 15 minutes, so i took a selfie to show everyone how happy i am. really? because esurance saved me money in half that time. can i...? oh you can be in it! no need to photo-bomb me. hashbrown. selfie. yeah... that's not how it works. 15 minutes for a quote isn't how it works anymore. start with a quote from esurance and you could save money on car insurance in half the time. welcome to the modern world. esurance. backed by allstate. click or call.
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i would. switch to comcast business internet and get the fastest wifi included. comcast business. built for business. the news cycle begins with the latest in another plane crash. this one in taiwan. military personnel are now en route to the crash scene where people are said to be trapped in the wreckage. officials fear as many as 47 people were killed when that plane crashed on a small taiwanese island while trying to land in stormy weather. tonight in new york, family and friends will gather at the funeral for 43-year-old eric garner, who died in police custody after being placed in what is being called an apparent chokehold by police that were attempting to arrest him. the citizen video capturing the scene has raised allegations of police misconduct by the nypd. two emts and two paramedics have been suspended without pay, and an nypd officer has been
stripped of his gun badge while the internal affairs unit investigates. >> very difficult to watch that video. turning no tow politics. we know now who the combatants are in that crucial georgia senate race that will help determine the future composition of the u.s. senate. it's a chance for a dem to grab a long-time republican seat. let's go to the tale of the tape. michelle nunn is the nominee. neither has ever been elected to public office. they can both run as outsiders. but both are related to prominent georgia politicians. so they both have brand anymore last names. perdue, of course, is a businessman who's worth millions. bloomberg estimates he's the second wealthiest senate candidate this cycle. he's been the major funder behind his campaign. to break this race down, let's bring in doug thornell from skd
nicker bocker. two questions to you. do you think michelle nunn would have rather run 11-term congressman kingston or rich outsider perdue? what do you think will make or shape this race? >> and be specific. >> so i think both of those candidates would have baggage. you have a washington insider, and now you have a businessman who democrats are going to go after as the second coming of mitt romney. and that's going to be their approach to going after david perdue. michelle nunn comes to the table with a lot of money. she hasn't had to spend much. perdue has been victimized over the course of this campaign by, you know, a pretty tough campaign between him and kingston. she has some real clear bipartisan bone fidys. she worked for george h.w. bush. democrats are actually very, very high on this race.
i think either one would have been -- it's going to be a tough race. it's still a red state. but it's also the only state that mitt romney won that was fairly competitive. it was about a seven-point difference between him and the president. >> yeah, and nunn seeps to be running a pretty effective campaign thus far. doug, one feature of this primary was pretty low turnout, particularly when compared to 2010 and actually that's been a trend overall, lower turnout in this midterm cycle than in 2010. chuck todd had a really pretty interesting and passionate commentary on that trend this morning. take a listen. >> americans need to believe that their votes matter. if you're running for office and you're running because you believe you can make positive change, if voters are not inspired, you're doing something wrong. if you make people feel their vote matters again, maybe they'll show up. if you make actual change in washington, americans might turn out and vote. voters are sick of the cynical campaigns which recycle their talking points from the lst decade. they're sick of the fact that after three change elections in the last four cycles, nothing
much has been done differently here in washington. they're sick of the fact that they don't hear candidates offering real solutions to the tough economy they're still experiencing. they don't have amnesia. >> what do you make of that, doug? >> there was about 120,000 vote dropoff between the primary and the special in georgia. the larger issue of primary dropoff, there was a study that showed 25 states registered their lowest turnout in primaries in history. part of the issue here is that one, people don't have faith in institutions anymore that they used to have, whether it's congress, tv news, newspapers, the church. they have no faith or confidence in those institutions anymore. number two, you got to remember, most primaries aren't competitive. so many of these seats have been drawn, particularly house seats, in a way that once you win, you're basically in there forever. and you generally don't have a tough primary opponent. so that lowers interest with
voters as well. so there's a problem with the faith in the institutions and also with this whole issue of how house districts are drawn. >> yeah, we've seen voter turnout this time around hitting extreme lows. what happens here is you have the 10% of the extreme right and the left that basically control the narrative and basically you get no governance. senator chuck schumer had an op-ed out yesterday that i think both sides of the aisle can agree to, basically calling for the end of the partisan primary system. he says the primary system has become a menace to governing, favoring more ideologically pure candidates. and he proposed a top-two primary system, something we've take place in california, where essentially everyone regardless of their party is able to vote. and the top two candidates move on to the general election. arnold schwarzenegger obviously loves this. he tweeted out, fantastic to see this and break up the status quo
of gridlock. why aren't we seeing this happening in other states? >> i think it's a good idea. what it will do is force candidates to get votes from republicans or independents rather than just going at their base. they can't run a strictly base mobilization message campaign where they're only appealing to the hard right or the hard left. they actually have to appeal to the middle. and it will send members of congress to washington who aren't just driven by the extremes of either party. so i think it's actually an idea that's worth looking at. i think both parties are going to have a problem with it because it would dilute the importance of many of the special interests in both the democratic and republican party. but as far as -- >> yeah, that's probably a good thing. >> as far as sending folks to washington who might be open to compromise, which we obviously haven't seen in a long time, i think that would improve the situation.
>> yeah, although i take abby's point. a lot of americans are worried about those poor special interests. do they have a loud enough voice? doug, you're our politics guy. we'd be remiss if we didn't ask about the other big politics story today. pretty big bomb shell report in the "new york times" about governor cuomo. allegations plus e-mails and documents suggesting that his office really tamped down the very ethics commission that he'd set up. ethics and campaign finance reform can be big issues. cuomo is someone that nationally has been rumored as a potential 2016 candidate and a big blue state governor. what did you make of those rather detailed allegations in that "new york times" report today? >> yes, 6,000 words. i think it was a pretty long, exhaustive piece. i think that, look, it's a political headache for the governor. i don't think that there's real evidence of legal wrongdoing. for someone whose brand is about going after albany, cleaning up corruption, this is something he's going to have to deal with and get ahead of. i don't think it's going to hurt his re-election effort because his opponent is, you know,
really doesn't have much money and he's up about 40 points on him. but he certainly has to worry about his brand. he has to worry about his brand, and his team has to get out there and do real damage control. >> you're saying he's up 40 points on -- >> on the republican. >> oh, the republican. got you. >> yeah. so i think the governor, i think his re-election is pretty secure. but certainly he has to worry about, you know, this impact on his brand. he's talked about going after and fighting corruption in albany. he's actually done a pretty good job of that. he passed a pretty -- he passed an ethics package there. this is not something they can sleep on. >> doug, except for ari's fact-checking moment, great hit as usual. i want to take issue with one thing you said. you said people have no faith in cable news. our viewers have faith in "the cycle." >> you guys are the exception. >> thank you so much, doug. after the break, is the snowden scandal keeping the nation's best and brightest from joining the nsa? the answer will surprise you.
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we are back with part two of our series on new technological advances shaping government and national security. tuesday we looked at the cia using amazon for cloud computing. today, what happens when the government's use of technology goes wrong? in the wake of the scandal that sent an avalanche of bad press for the nsa, a lot of people thought that would lead to a snowden effect, hurting not only spy morale but recruitment of the spies we might need tomorrow. but one journalist says that's not happening. she dug into the issue for "government executive" magazine's special issue. she joins us from washington. how are you? >> great. how are you? >> i'm good. so tell me what you mean by this idea that whatever you think of edward snowden, he's not hurting recruitment to our intelligence
agencies. >> right. the employees who are there are staying there. they're sticking with their jobs. they are as determined, if not more so, to protect national security. and you know, you have the next generation is not necessarily turned off by what they found out. in fact, some technologists are intrigued and want to learn more about the cutting edge technology there. >> but the snowden effects have had a pretty big impact on the way that many americans now view the intelligence community. a lot of americans have lost real trust in what they do. as this taken a toll at all on the morale within the industry, or is there still that real sense of pride? >> it has had an emotional impact. these people are just there trying to do their jobs the best they can. some of them were discouraged by what snowden had to say. they felt like they're now
characterized as snoops, and also they have concerns about national security being damaged. actually, a survey that ranks the best agencies to work for five years in a row had ranked the intelligence community as among the best places to work in the federal government. and the intelligence community is still there for 2013 but it dropped from second to third place after the leaks. >> i could totally understand why learning the vast amount of power that the nsa has, thousands of young people would say, i actually want to acquire and utilize that power for myself. so i don't -- i understand why they're still able to recruit folks. but from the other side, what have they done? what changes have they made at the nsa to make sure that they don't recruit another edward snowden who's coming in to be that person who blows the whistle? >> well, across the government
you see the national security agencies, the age agenc agencies, trying to tie together be bea databases to get information. but it's hard to get inside the head of an individual. >> and we've obviously been through a very tough recession that we're still struggling to recover from. government jobs tend to be good jobs. they tend to be seen as stable jobs. are people in general really clamoring to get into good government jobs as recruiting overall is going well. >> you know, with the shutdown, it's not -- you can't even say that the government is a safe bet anymore. but yes, especially in the information technology world and in cyber security. a lot of people feel that this is an interesting field of work. despite whatever snowden did,
you know, the work will survive the criticism. >> yeah, and what comes through in your article also is the fact we got a lot of rank and file people just trying to do their jobs, which is separate from something some of us have been critical of the nsa for which is its management going rogue, james clapper lying to congress. that's not something the day-to-day operations have any control over. thank you for your time today. >> thank you. >> tomorrow we have more from "government executive" magazine's in-depth look at tech with focus on the streaming revolution, new power in the hands of citizens, possibly like never before. but up next, looking to a higher power. have you got religion? the lengths so much churches are going to bring young people back into the fold. if i can impart one lesson to a
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[announcer]beneful has wholesome grains,real beef,even accents of spinach,carrots and peas. [guy] you love it so much. yes you do. but it's good for you, too. [announcer] healthful. flavorful. beneful. from purina. america's institutions are suffering a crisis of confidence. confidence in government is at an all-time low, belief that our country is headed in the right direction is way under water, and many today seem to be longing for hope and a sense of community. it would seem then to be the perfect opportunity for stable religious institutions to fill that need. but people are losing confidence there too. nearly half have left the faith they grew up with. but a new book called "got religion: how churches, mosques, and synagogues can bring young people back" may have the key on how to do exactly that. here with us is the book's author. thank you so much for being with us. >> thank you.
>> i want to just start with a quote that you have in the book from a millennial and a person of faith about some of the efforts that churches and religious organizations have used to try to appeal to them that have been falling short. he said, we've been marketed to since childhood, and we can smell it a mile away. when we step into a church and sense it, it is patronizing and offensive. your young adult outreach may be well intentioned, but it comes off as phoney. how do you appeal to young people without patronizing them? >> yeah, it is really hard. i mean, i sympathize with a lot of the religious leaders i spoke with out there. churches and synagogues and mosques are spending moneys of thousands and millions of dollars and thousands of hours trying to figure out how to reach this generation. unfortunately, a lot of their efforts seem to be going toward these marketing campaigns, trying to find technological solutions to a lot of these problems. but the institutions that i visited across the country that are succeeding, one of the things they had in common is that the technology really wasn't such a big factor after
all. it turned out that they were creating a kind of real, authentic community on a very local level often that really appealed to this generation. it's not that they are just looking for social networking. they really are looking for face-to-face contact and a sense of community. >> one of the challenges in appealing to the millennial generation is they have such a wide variety of choices in access to information and choices in their lives that they take sort of an a la carte approach to religion. so that's a particular challenge when you're trying to get them to commit to a specific, organized religion. >> right, we call this the paradox of choice followed by decision fatigue. this is what social sciences call it. it's a real problem. a lot of our modern technology is always telling us there's something better out there. so people choose a little bit of this, a little bit of that, then they regret it afterwards and say, i should have done this instead. >> i was wondering what's on other channels right now. >> no, but i think that is
exactly it. so you really have to find a way to kind of get them more fully committed and more fully involved. and one of the religious leaders i talked to said, one problem is that we're not giving them enough responsibility in our religious institutions. they show up, and it doesn't really matter whether they could be there or not because there's some 50, 60, 70-year-old who's been doing some volunteer position for the last 30 years now, and they're going to keep doing it. and instead of saying, okay, here's some responsibility, we actually want you to be here -- >> we need you here. >> exactly. we' >> i wonder if one of the problems is the structure or the nature of the services at various churches. when i think about going to some of these baptist services, it's so exciting and you feel just so energized. other services are very stayed and calm. i wonder if some of these folks you're talking about trying to lure back in will be lured in if the service itself was more, for lack of a better word, exciting. >> it's possible. but i think, you know, what religious leaders call that is
the spiritual consumer approach. it's sort of, what can i get out of this experience? what young people tell me they want is, what can i do for this institution? and unfortunately, a lot of the college religious experiences is very much this great music, exciting preaching, everybody's all the same generation, and one person said to me, you know, leaving college is like jumping off a religious cliff. because they don't know what they're going to do next. it's like, oh, i have to join this plain old church with grandmothers and babies? and they're not used to that anymore. i think we need to rethink a little bit of what happens between 18 and 22 as well. >> great point. i love going into a baptist church. everyone feels welcome when they walk in there and hear the music and the spirit. i grew up in a very religious household, and as i get older, and i have a lot of friends who have as well, and i often talk to them about how we've evolved. i was raised mormon. the challenge that i see is it's very much black and white. conditional love, as i like to say. if you don't follow all of the
rules, then you aren't part of the family. you aren't accepted like you want to be. so it really is you're one foot in, one foot out some of the time. it's a real challenge, especially on in, fit out. millennials opened up to issues like gay marriage. if you support gay marriage, that doesn't work when you walk into a church on sunday. how does a church work that in when they know the millennials view it differently. >> the jacket problem. you put on the jacket of faith when you feel like you totally believe something or take it off when you do something kind of off and throw it in the corner and never go to put it on because you feel like i'd be a hypocrite if i put it back on. hypocrisy is a huge buzzword. >> some people never go back. >> that's it. another reason they don't go back, they are putting off marriage longer and loerng. as you know average age of marriage is higher and higher. traditionally churches have relied on marriage to bring
people back. oh, i got married, better join a church. had a kid, join a church. you put it off, 10, 12 years out of the habit, it might not happen at all. mormon church, first of all, age of marriage is very much younger. they have decided to target singles specifically. there are specifically congregations entirely young adults under 30 who are single. they have figured out a way to say you don't need to be married to hear our message. you don't need to be on the way to a family to hear our message. we have a message for everyone. there may be issues you disagree with. they are trying to figure out how to reach you at this point in your life. >> generational perspective, another thing the young cohort is dealing with, a rough economy. people coming out of college with more uncertainty than many other periods. talk to us about the way that dynamic and whether young people have so many financial insecurity concerns, spending
more time looking for work or finding a second job. something that feels optional or get to it later gets crowded out, religious observance. >> that's one dynamic that happens. this emerging adulthood, period of 20s, changing roommates, jobs, finished with your education or not. it can feel very transitional. i don't think everybody loves that feeling. i think what religious institutions can offer is kind of a rock in your life. they can offer a sense of permanence young people feel like i kind of wish there was something in my life that stayed the same over time. >> you're saying the desire is there but religious institutions aren't tapping into what millennials need at this point in time. thank you for your time. don't go too far. we are sitting down together after the latest crystal continued. catch it on the cycle.msnbc.com. stick with us. ari's angle is up next.
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i can't breathe. i can't breathe. >> that's what eric garner, 43-year-old father of six said as four officers pinned him to the ground. he couldn't. he was held in what and to be a choke hold, soon went limp and died. the lapd said he was arrested for selling illegal cigarettes. they put one on desk duty, several investigations began. a video splicing these two scenes together fiction and fact separated by 25 years. countless debate about crime and safety, race and justice, thugs and brave cops and bad cops. these two incidents have more in common than their content. more than cops and an unarmed man. what they also have in common are filmmakers. we all know spike lee. we don't know ramsey orta but
he's the reason we know eric garner. he shot this on the cell phone. he's the one at the beginning of it saying officers are arresting garner for breaking up a fight. he had the forethought and courage to document the altercation. now that video provides crucial reporting of whatsapp. it changes this entire dispute from he said she said debate where one side is dead and can't speak to an incident we can all see. that's key because the initial police report downplayed what is so visible on the tape. now that video is potential evidence in these criminal investigations. as people use this video, as police and politicians debate its meaning, lets remember that just making this kind of video is still often barred by police. that's what police departments have done in states like illinois, florida, maryland, new hampshire. you can go to jail for years just for pulling out your cell phone. a few states have found a constitutional right to record police. while nypd says it allows such
recordings, police sometimes do arrest people for doing it. in fact, a suit filed tuesday, just two days before garner was killed asked to intervene and stop the nypd video crackdown. it says the nypd restricts people from attempting to record officers on duty. we already know that kind of interference was alleged after garner's death. increase, today in an interview with nbc tamron hall, ramsey orta said officers threatened to arrest him. >> did they ever try to get you to put down the camera? >> yes. >> what did they say to you? >> they told me it was a crime special investigation and get off the scene. if not, i was going to be arrested. >> just think about that for a second. if after everything we've learned this week the only people facing arrest at that scene were an unman, now dead, and the unarmed citizen recording the incident then something is really backwards here and something needs to
change. thanks for watching. that is our show for the day. you can find "the cycle" on facebook and find me at firstname.lastname@example.org. "now" is up next. two ukrainian jetliners shot down from russian territory. this is "now" live from washington, d.c. >> smoke, flames, charred wreckage once again. >> pro-russian rebels shot down two ukrainian fighter jets. leaders claiming responsibility. >> a new plane crash investigation is happening in the middle of a war zone. >> vladimir putin has the most influence, the most direct influence over these separatists. >> clearly a thuggish image in the mind of policymakers. >> the president is still going to have to lead on this issue. >> we've made very clear to the russia